Overdraft fees

As an employee of a large bank, I frequently hear about excessive overdraft fees from friends and acquaintances. Even people I’ve just met learn that I’m a banker and immediately want to talk about the hundreds of dollars in fees they’ve had to pay in recent months. The obvious sarcastic response — “Don’t spend money you don’t have!” — isn’t exactly helpful, but I’ve decided I should post the advice I routinely give when the subject comes up.

Here goes… Overdraft fee secrets from a banker!

First and foremost, you’ve GOT to keep track of what you spend. Daily. Without fail. Any time you are taking money out of your account, whether it’s an ATM withdrawal or a written check or a debit card charge, take the receipt and get in a daily routine of putting the amounts in a checkbook or some other online register. I use Quicken, but Microsoft Money is a good alternative on the PC front.

Don’t wait for it to clear; by then, it’s too late and you may have already overdrafted. Write it down or enter it into your online register the day you authorize it, so you can’t possibly forget. If you know what outstanding charges are waiting to hit your account, you won’t be taken by surprise.

When trying to track your debit card usage, don’t rely on what your Online Banking service says is a pending charge. Some merchants will take their sweet time actually processing the charge, and that temporary authorization hold (which creates a “pending” transaction in your account) will drop off after a couple of days. If the merchant, or the Merchant Services vendor that processes the company’s credit card transactions, doesn’t get around to it for a week, you’re potentially going to forget. WRITE IT DOWN WHEN YOU AUTHORIZE IT.

If you’ve got recurring charges every month that hit your checking account automatically, such as a gym membership or Netflix or a cellphone bill, you DEFINITELY want to use a program like Quicken or Money to keep track of your finances. Those programs will automatically enter those charges into your electronic checkbook every month, so you can see if you’re going to be in trouble before next payday. You know your student loan payment is going to come out of your account like clockwork — don’t let yourself be surprised.

And finally, don’t use your debit card when you don’t have to, if you’re getting close to payday and your funds are looking a little low. Banks typically process the largest transactions FIRST each day, which means you’re less likely for your rent/mortgage, car payment, big utility payments, large student loan payments, etc. to be declined. Good to know you dodged that bullet, right?

It also means that if you use your debit card to buy a pack of gum, and then later to buy a cup of coffee, and then later to buy a one-way subway card, you’re potentially in trouble if that big charge cleared out your account. You may have spent less than ten dollars on stuff, but your overdraft fees could be more than a hundred when you start adding them up for each small usage.

The simple solution? USE CASH if your account is getting close to zero. You really don’t want to spend forty bucks on that latte, when you include the overdraft fee you might incur. Save your debit card for online shopping and larger purchases. Good rule of thumb: if you’re worried about overdraft fees, and the purchase you’re about to make costs less than an overdraft fee, DON’T USE YOUR DEBIT CARD.

Debit cards are quick, simply, and rapidly becoming an indispensable part of everyday American life. They’re also a surefire pain in the ass when money gets tight, because those fees will make an already-bad financial situation even worse. You’ve GOT to keep track of your spending, in a daily routine that you never stray from, and you’ve got to be smart about using your card when you’re getting too close to zero.

Any questions?

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32 Responses to Overdraft fees

  1. Erin says:

    Uhm, am I just a sick bitch that I am 100% completely incapable of having less than a thousand dollar cushion in my bank account? I know I am super anal about my bank account(s). I have a few because of my living situation. I almost thought I bounced a purchase with TD bank (Commerce) last month and nearly killed someone. I don’t use that account anymore and they were going to charge me $40.00 in overdraft. I did like UBER ninja shit to avoid that charge. I’m proud to say to this day I have never overdrafted.

  2. Michael says:

    Frankly, I don’t think it’s fair that people be penalized for not thinking like bankers. Sure we could all be perfect managers of finance, but is that likely? A solution that demands everyone be better than they are isn’t particularly realistic. Besides, being financially adept isn’t the only skill-set that can contribute to society; it’s hardly fair to saddle a good chunk of the population with a built-in disadvantage because they lack the financial acumen of bankers. Obviously we should all try to do our best but it’s just wishful thinking to expect everyone to just get better.

    Also, I think your career biases you to assume good faith on the part of the bank. I’ve seen a dramatic increase in the amount of transactions allowed to process despite insufficient funds that would’ve been declined a few months ago. There’s a reason the Fed has imposed strict new regulations on overdraft charges, after all.

  3. gatoruptown says:

    Michael, nobody is saying people have to think like bankers. In fact, it’s really going back to thinking like our parents used to — if they didn’t have the money, they either didn’t spend it, or they borrowed it. People today use their debit cards blindly without knowing whether or not they have the money available.

    People using a debit card like that aren’t taking responsibility for themselves, and they just expect the bank to let them buy things anyway. THAT’S not fair, but it demonstrates the sense of entitlement that people feel in the 21st century (and yes, I’m guilty of that sort of thing too)

    The solution is exceedingly simple: don’t use a debit card, and/or keep a checkbook. Like people used to have to do, before convenience products became something people depended on, whether they could afford to or not.

    And no, I’m not biased to assume good faith on behalf of banks’ overdraft practices. I think the fees themselves are way too large, and I know that the practice of paying big items first — while having a benefit of protecting your biggest expenses — also brings in a TON of fee money to the banks. No argument there at all.

    You’re prompting me to return to my original sarcastic response: don’t spend money you don’t have, and you won’t get charged the associated fees.

  4. Michael says:

    Kevin- You’re totally right that I can find more time and take more responsibility myself. I was using myself as a (not ideal, admittedly) example while trying to speak more collectively since your original post was a sort-of “guide for the masses.” You can expect an individual to make a choice but the fact is, large GROUPS of people will behave in rather predictable ways and by saying the solution here is for each one of them to take more responsibility when the majority of them aren’t going to is a cop-out of your own. If the general populace is almost always going to offer the same behavior under the same stimulus then you have to change the stimulus because the populace isn’t going to change on their own–though yes, an individual can.

    Speaking more to my own situation, yes I’ve been trying to gain more control but it’s hardly like I’m doing a lot of frivolous spending. The cost of living in New York itself is very high and meeting basic living expenses can be a struggle at my income. I think if you lived near me and saw how I live, you’d probably find my lifestyle rather spartan–my roommate certainly does. But even I’m not immune to social norms and sometimes find myself going against my better judgement to take Matt out for dinner because I don’t want him to always be the one doing it. But yes, the solution FOR ME, is to exercise better judgement and track my expenses more consistently. Unfortunately that solution isn’t scalable.

  5. Steven says:

    Michael,

    Just because large groups of people WON’T do the right thing doesn’t make it any less right. The banking system has been in place for decades. If people are becoming too selfish and lazy to follow the norms, the banks shouldn’t be punished for that. When you overdraft, you’re spending the bank’s money and not your own. Therefore, they’ve the right to charge the fee. “Mob mentality” is not an excuse for you or anyone else to shirk personal responsibility. Everyone is capable of monitoring what they spend, and therefore the solution is scalable. It’s illogical to make the conclusion that the correct action is wrong, strictly because people make the choice not to improve.

    As for banks being “predators,” I think that’s rather silly. The banks have been doing practically the same thing for decades. Credit card companies and “quick loan” places might be predatory, but banks in general are not. It’s not being predatory for charging someone a fee to access money that doesn’t belong to them (i.e. using the bank’s money when you overdraft).

    I’m a 25 year old graduate student with plenty of expenses of my own and very little income, and I’ve never once overdrafted. It takes two to three minutes a day to keep track of these things. If there was an expectation of hours of monitoring, then maybe not everyone could do it. But it’s a barely minimal task that saves you money in the long run. You’d think two or three minutes would be worth the $25+ overdrafts to someone, especially if they work for much less per hour.

  6. gatoruptown says:

    Hey Mike, don’t misunderstand me: I’m not suggesting you’re out frivolously blowing money. But knowing what’s available in your account on a daily basis will help you make better decisions about simple small purchases, to help ensure a $2 charge doesn’t get a $35 overdraft fee tacked on. Avoiding those fees will help your situation get a little more comfortable.

    Speaking for the masses… Saying that people are too lazy or too dumb to take responsibility for themselves is what’s condescending. If any single individual is having problems with fees, and there are reasonable steps that they can take to avoid them, why would we not expect them to behave like adults?

    When people choose to drive fast and they get a speeding ticket, we expect them to pay it. When people choose to go to the store to get groceries, we expect them to pay for it. When people choose to use a debit card, we expect them to have money in that account, and if they don’t, they are responsible for that choice.

    For the record, plenty of people go through life without using a debit card, even in New York. Cash isn’t a convenient option, but it IS an option. If people find they just plain cannot hold themselves responsible for their own use of a checking account and a debit card, it’s completely within their power to stop using it and choose a safer option.

    It’s not a choice I’d want to make for myself, so instead, I choose to act like an adult and take responsibility for my actions. I had my own run-ins with overdraft fees, and I learned my lesson and changed my behavior.

    And this was BEFORE I worked for the “predatory banks” but AFTER I became a grown adult.

  7. Michael says:

    Steven, my point is just that you won’t get anywhere by expecting people to be anything other than what they are. By designing a system that disadvantages a majority of people–who will, as a group, tend not to be consistent in tracking their finances–you’re building in a systemic bias against those people and disadvantaging them when, in fact, they might have something to offer society beyond mere financial skills. Things work better when they work around how people are, not how we’d like them to be.

  8. Michael says:

    Kevin: I’m not being condescending, I’m dealing with the world as it is (at least on this point–not always with my own checking account). You can make all the points about personal responsibility that you want but the fact remains that people, as a group, WILL behave a certain way under certain stimuli. In this case, as I said to Steven, the majority of people will NOT adequately track their finances in a consumer culture that takes advantage of people’s known tendency to pursue short-term interests and make illogical decisions. This isn’t a judgement or a condescension, it’s how people are known to be as a group.

  9. Steven says:

    The disadvantages for those people are self-created. They can change the circumstances, and therefore it’s their choice to be at that disadvantage. I’m not the cause, the effect, or anywhere in between. Personal choices are creating their disadvantages, and your viewpoint that someone else is pushing them down is a widespread one — and one that is causing multitudes of problems in this country. What they can offer society has nothing to do with holding them personally responsible for handling their money. And as for your little quote about “working around how people are” — people are CAPABLE of handling their finances (as evidenced by the decades worth of people who’ve handled them in the past). Thus the idea of responsibility is working WITHIN the bounds of who they are, rather than who “we” would like them to be.

    Besides, MY point is that your point is silly. The world will never change if we don’t expect people to be better.

  10. Katrina says:

    When I worked in banking, I wanted to have a little TV on my desk playing this on an endless loop.

  11. Michael says:

    Steven: It doesn’t matter if the disadvantages are self-created and the individual can change the circumstances because the majority of the individuals WON’T if the context doesn’t change. It doesn’t matter that an individual is capable of changing his or her behavior if the majority of individuals are not changing their behavior. This isn’t a matter of what CAN happen, it’s a matter of what WILL.

    Your final point is mistaken. The world will never change if all we do is expect people to be better.

    You keep reducing this to the individual but the fact is, for all the individual’s free will and choice, the majority of them behave quite consistently in the same context. This doesn’t square with our personal experience–we see people as individually capable of making a choice. But our experience doesn’t generalize and the majority of individuals tend to make the same choice under the same set of stimuli wether that’s the sensible choice or not. You can’t change the people (unless you’re going to genetically engineer them to be something else) all you can change is the stimuli that are shown to produce the same sets of behavior.

  12. gatoruptown says:

    Michael: as adults, when we choose to not take responsibility for our own actions, we are held accountable for them.

    If people choose to not use their bank accounts responsibly, they will be held accountable for it. If they want to stop getting these fees, they can make simple choices to stop being charged them.

    I refuse to accept that we should just shrug our shoulders and say, “People aren’t going to take responsibility for themselves, so let’s stop holding them accountable for their actions.”

    This is totally within people’s ability to control, plain and simple. We’re talking about adults, and if they’re not going to act like adults, they’re going to have to accept the consequences or choose to change their behavior.

  13. Michael says:

    Kevin, you’re framing this as personal decision each individual can make and be held accountable for. I’m trying to tell you that it just doesn’t work that way–you know economics and you know as well as I do that collective behavior shows properties like emergence and other qualities that have nothing whatsoever to do with individual choice but arise, nonetheless, from groups of individuals all making similar choices under the similar conditions.

  14. Steven says:

    Since Kevin said everything I would have said, I’ll let his post count for mine.

    And my final point was NOT mistaken. I never claimed to stop at expecting people to get better and to not take that further, I was just countermanding your point that we can’t expect people to be anything more than what they are.

    People are completely capable of change. The person I was 5 years ago and the person I am today are completely different in attitude and behavior, by choice.

    You keep on thinking that everyone else is to blame, and that only the stimuli are causing your behavior, and things will never change for the better.

  15. Steven says:

    Michael, YOUR overdraft fees are caused by YOUR actions. Thus it’s YOUR decision to make, and YOU can be held accountable for it. Not a large group of people. Not the bank. Not me or Kevin. YOU.

    Someone going home and watching tv and ignoring his bank account is HIS choice, not a “collective behavior.”

  16. gatoruptown says:

    “Groups of individuals all making similar choices under the similar conditions” is true… but it’s still individuals making those choices, period.

    Besides, you’re talking about this like it’s SOCIETY who keeps getting these fees. The reality is, most banking customers manage their accounts without problem day after day. Overdraft fees aren’t an issue for everyone, they’re only an issue for the PORTION of society that is making irresponsible choices.

    *AND* of the people that do have overdraft problems, many of them learn their lesson from the experience, and don’t continue. The people that continue to rack up overdraft fee after overdraft fee are a minority, but they’re a VOCAL minority because they’d rather spend time complaining than spend a small amount of time correcting the problem through their own actions.

  17. Michael says:

    Steven, I stopped talking about me and my behavior a while ago. I’m not talking about individuals, I wish you guys could understand the simple point that individual choice simply DOES NOT SCALE UP that way. You’re talking about yourself and your personal growth but you cannot generalize your own experience outside your own context. Though, interestingly, people–as a group–show a striking tendency to generalize their experiences in exactly that way so here you are being yourself and yet still behaving the way most people tend to.

  18. Michael says:

    Kevin, I don’t know what it’s like in Charlotte but you try living in New York without some kind of plastic. I don’t have a credit card because my credit was destroyed by medical bills so it falls to the debit card. Besides, most ATMs make you take out money in $20 increments, which isn’t always possible or desirable for somebody at my income. And use a checkbook? The number of people and businesses accepting checks for anything grows smaller every day.

    You want me to be as responsible as my parents? When my parents were my age, they had more time to manage their finances and their money was worth more and went further. They also weren’t subject to as many predatory banking practices.

    I understand you’re trying to be helpful but when you acknowledge the fact that the banks are doing their damnedest to maximize fees and then telling people the best they can do is manage their money better and try not to get themselves in a vulnerable position with their banks–while you work for a bank–comes off as a tad condescending and somewhat questionable. Why should the largest burden of responsibility always lie with those who have the poorest resources to manage it?

    You’re my friend and I love you but I’m damned glad somebody stepped up and put a law in place to prevent your employers’ self-interest from putting people like me on the street.

  19. gatoruptown says:

    Michael, I totally understand your point about the convenience of using plastic in NYC. I wouldn’t want to use cash for anything other than a hot dog in NYC, or in Charlotte or anywhere else for that matter.

    I would NEVER recommend trying to use checks on a daily basis while out and about, in NYC or any other town. I was talking about the checkbook, where you track money coming in and out of your account, the old “balancing the checkbook” concept. That way you wouldn’t be caught unawares when you run out of money. I prefer using an electronic version, as I mentioned — Quicken and Money are both good products for that.

    Totally disagree with you about it being unfair to expect you to manage your finances. Taking a few minutes each day to track how much money goes out of your account isn’t a bit commitment at all, and saying you don’t have time to do so is absurd. You’ve spent more time talking about predatory banking practices in the past 12 hours than it would take you to manage your bank account every day for two weeks.

    Yes, I expect you to be as responsible for your bills and money as your parents were. It strikes me as an absurd (and frankly, a cop out) to say that people today are too busy these days to be responsible for their own actions. Taking a couple of minutes each day would help you manage your bills, which frankly is something every grown adult should have to do.

    Considering the amount of time I routinely spend chatting, Facebooking, and so on with you, I don’t believe you can’t find 5 minutes a day to look at your bank account and enter in whatever transactions you made the previous day. I know I take the time, and there’s no reason you can’t either.

    This isn’t a question of “burden of responsibility” here. It’s YOUR money, and YOUR bank account, and it’s not the least bit predatory of banks to expect you to manage your own bank account. Yes, fees are too expensive, but you can avoid them. I have sympathy for you for the first couple of large overdraft fees, but after that, you knew what the result would be if you overdrafted, and you can avoid them going forward by taking responsibility for your own account.

    It’s not condescending to say “take responsibility for your money and take simple prudent steps that will help you avoid fees you don’t want to pay.” This is totally within your power to avoid, plain and simple.

    The bank isn’t putting you on the street because of overdraft fees — your insistence that it’s not fair of the bank to expect you to take responsibility for your money is what’s costing you these fees. YOU CAN AVOID THEM.

  20. Steven says:

    I was using YOU as an individual person, rather than specifically talking about YOU as YOU.

    It DOES scale up that way. Psychobabble regarding group think doesn’t apply. Each person has the choice and ability to handle their own money, irregardless of the fact that other people are making similar (or dissimilar) choices. We’re indidivuals, with separate minds and separate wills. We’re not lemmings running off a cliff.

    You keep blaming “collective behavior” and watch everything stay the same or get worse. I’ll continue expecting people to make wise decisions and take responsibility. In the long run, neither of our decisions or outlooks will have a major impact on anything — but I’ll be seeing the potential for good in people, and you’ll be selling them short.

    On that note, I’m getting back to work now. Thanks for the debate.

  21. SeanO says:

    See…I just wish there was a debit card that would decline right away if there was no money. I keep track of what I spend pretty well, but every once in a while I’ll make a silly mistake.

    I just really wish they could add something that would just make the card decline.

  22. Jennifer says:

    Mike – maybe just think more creatively about your money management? For example I have a card I use JUST for gas/groceries….the main unbudgeted amounts that I deal with. That card sits empty at the beginning of the month…its the very last bill I pay in a monthly cycle. THAT is the card I use for my little daily “whatevers”. If for some reason there is no money left on it (did happen once!) it will get declined. End of issue. I see Michael saying that he can’t get by without plastic…that is a viable alternative. Get a little card, you could even do a prepaid one although I like that mine is through the bank so I can pay my bill easily. Load it up with whatever funds you feel you need throughout the month. Save your bank account for your real bills and use that for the expenses you find throughout your week that you feel you don’t want to carry cash for! Then you have your non-overdraft fee plastic to get you through the day.

    For the record my boyfriend is unjustifiable angry and against banks…and he has yet to give me one good reason why. They give you the paperwork when you open the account that says “Hey, heres what we’re going to charge you if you stop spending your money and start spending mine”. And every bank I’ve heard of will give you a “get out of jail” card of sorts and waive the fees when something insane happens. If you just call them and are nice – and don’t have a history of money mismanagement – they will take that fee away.

  23. gatoruptown says:

    Sean, that actually DOES happen, in theory… Here’s the problem:

    Those “temporary authorizations” will put a hold on the money in the account for a couple of days, which should prevent you from using it during that time… But if the merchant doesn’t actually push the transaction through in a timely manner, the hold drops off, and then a few days later you’re thinking you can keep spending, but that merchant finally DOES pull out the money and you’re screwed.

    See what I mean?

    That’s why keeping track of your charges when you AUTHORIZE them (swiping the card, putting in your debit card number online, writing and mailing a check, etc) is so important… You never know when they’ll actually take the money out.

  24. Jennifer says:

    Or another way to avoid the fees…I have a card I use JUST for gas/groceries….the main unbudgeted amounts that I deal with. That card sits empty at the beginning of the month…its the very last bill I pay in a monthly cycle. THAT is the card I use for my little daily “whatevers”. If for some reason there is no money left on it (did happen once!) it will get declined. End of issue. I see Michael saying that he can’t get by without plastic…that is a viable alternative. Get a little card, you could even do a prepaid one although I like that mine is through the bank so I can pay my bill easily. Load it up with whatever funds you feel you need throughout the month. Save your bank account for your real bills and use that for the expenses you find throughout your week that you feel you don’t want to carry cash for!

  25. dane says:

    doesn’t the new banking law state that banks have to let customers dip at least $10 in the red before charging? or is that just my bofa checking? i, like a responsible adult, can balance a checkbook, so this is of little concern to me so i’m just throwing out the soundbites i’ve heard.

  26. Jan Maarten says:

    Hi Kevin,

    As an expatriate I think it’s funny how here the faults of the banks (running way, way behind in using currently available information and communication technologies) is being pushed to their customers… I’m not trying to say everything is better in the Netherlands (or Europe so you want), then I should not be living here, but a debit card is supposed to be used as debit. It’s my bank that should check the availability of finds before authorizing my payment. This sometimes gives an embarrising moment at the register when the payment is declained, but thats no different that maxing out a credit card I guess…
    Having to keep fully track of my expenses is insane. Thats where banks and on-line banking should step in. Because the technology is available and should be utilized. Inability (incompetence so you want) of the banks to keep up with proven technology is a huge irritation of me. Not just the inability to verify my expenses as they occur, but also the inability to transfer funds in an instant and from my computer in seconds for no fee (as I still do in the Netherlands)is what I actually expect from my bank. Slight problem in this economy: this will actually require a lot less people (no more old fashion checks, less people coming into banks requiring tellers, less staff to process all the paperwork). I have never and will never fully keep track of my expenses.

    Here I ‘solved’ my problem by having more money in my account than I actually would prefer, but with close to no, or even no interest on my savings, it doesn’t really matter anyway 😉

    So far for my ranting…

    Oh btw: I have worked for a bank in the Netherlands (ING in case you’ve heard from them) and I think they are slow in adapting to new technologies, mostly for security reasons, which I encourage to take into a account, but way ahead of the banking industry in the US on many points.

  27. William Lepsch says:

    oh brother..we are doomed as a species…..just doomed.

  28. David says:

    as an adult you should know how to add and subtract the money you deposit or take out of your bank account. not keeping a running balance of your accounts is being lazy. if you do it ever day it takes all of 5 min to sit down and balance it all out.
    and to the technology aspect of eletronic funds the bank takes it out of your account as soon as they get the information but some places of business do not (batch out ) their credit/ debit information ever business day some places actually hold the batch for up to 48 hours so things can actually hit your account at a later date. credit and debit are not always instantly taken out of your account.
    bottom line its your money you should track it.
    lastly balancing your bank account is not college level math its adding and subtracting we learned that around 3rd grade

  29. Jan Maarten says:

    David, since your comment seems to be directed at me: you can call me lazy all you want. I have better things to do than keeping track of my exact balance, taking 5 minutes or not… I know what I can and can’t spend and that sort of works.
    Thing still is that the debit system is not set-up correctly and I don’t really care the slightest if you agree or not. The only thing I’m going to say is that the reason things stay the way they are is because of the approach you take is the exact approach that is being taken and that way things won’t change… As one of the best soccer coaches once said: you’ll see things when you see them.

  30. Kimmy says:

    I always love the smell of people passing blame in the morning. Michael and Jan yeah..I can see how it must be ever so hard to keep track of your own money. God why can’t OTHER people do it for you and tell you how much you have and make sure you aren’t spending too much and.. oh wait! I forgot..doing things for yourself is ~*hard*~

    oh internet, you keep on being classy.

  31. David says:

    wow no actually i read all of the posts not just yours and was not responding to you but the entire blog. I run a small business and have to know how debit and credit charges work. I m not a business perons either i went to hair school i have to force myself to sit down and do the numbers its not fun but no one is going to take care of my money for me.

  32. Jan Maarten says:

    The only thing I was saying and (still) am is that the system doesn’t work optimal and should be better. As you may have read in my posts I (in general) know what’s in my account… I know what I can spend. I just think it’s weird that charges agains my debit card are not checked the same instant (that’s what happens in the Netherlands), so if the funds are not there, the payment is declined in stead of charging 40 (or 10) dollars for an overdraft fee (especially since I keep a savings account at the same bank).
    And I know doesn’t work that way here I’m just saying that I actually think it should, to protect people (customers of the banks) from getting into trouble. Why? Because it’s possible (it exists) and everybody should understand that this does not encourage people to have bank accounts. When I read that there are a lot of people that don’t have bank account, just for all the charges, it sort of upset me. Banks are a safe place to keep your money. Banks should be able to make a profit by lending money to people (morgages and businesses in general) and should try to get as much money so they can make money lending it. But maybe I’m a little naive here and more into “live and let live”, than “live and kill”.

    So yes I agree nobody is going to take care of my money than me, but my statement actually is, that my bank should do that for me, since they are actually paid for it (or at least can make money for themselves using my money). That’s my way of taking care of my money…

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